Curse

kryshnysh · Jun 27, 2006, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by overclocked

Dont be a scrub, Read Sirlin Stop Crying and get better at the game please.

Read Guru posts a bit more please.

The game is changing from a game of strategy to a game of rock-paper-scissors with respect to builds. It's not "balanced" in the sense that many wanted and was true up until this point. This change is not welcomed by many in the PvP community, including many if not most of the best players out there.

Draygo Korvan · Jun 27, 2006, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vital

I think a slight nerf would be good for a certain Elite monk skill that has brought on this rage.

Air of Enchantment brought on the smite yes, but it is not the reason why the build has alot of power. Zealots fire is easily removed as is, and prevents all benifit from the air of enchantment (who attacks warriors anyway). Clean warriors, or specifically bunny thumpers is the cause of all that grief.

But i still do expect Air of Enchantment to get nerfed, probably so it behaves like Divine Spirit (Min cost 1 energy).

SB RI will be nerfed, probably in this respect SB will not trigger on reapplied hexes, as per its description.

Quote:

For 30 seconds, target foe takes 15...27 damage when an "Enchantment" or "Hex" is cast on that target.

bolded for effect

As of right now, Soul Barbs is broken and not behaving like the discription says it should behave. If it is fixed, the RI spike will go right out the window.

Boofhead · Jun 27, 2006, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draygo Korvan

SB RI will be nerfed, probably in this respect SB will not trigger on reapplied hexes, as per its description.

bolded for effect

As of right now, Soul Barbs is broken and not behaving like the discription says it should behave. If it is fixed, the RI spike will go right out the window.

Is it the skill that's broken or is it your perception of GW "hex mechanics"? Is the action of RI being reapplied the same as a hex being recast (both trigger soul barbs - ie. casting parasitic bond on a target already hexed with parasitic bond will trigger soul barbs)?
IMO it's working correctly (at least, it's working how I would expect from the skill description), but it probably is too powerful.

Aug · Jun 27, 2006, 06:55 PM // 18:55

How is "re-applying" a hex not recasting it? What other example from GW can you cite to support this theory that re-application is not re-casting?

The skill works as written, IMO.

TKin · Jun 27, 2006, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by overclocked

Every build is a gimic build, If you play a build with out the right counters, is the build at fault or you?

Of course you are at fault but this thread is saying the opposite.

Dont be a scrub, Read Sirlin Stop Crying and get better at the game please.

How Idiotic!!

I’ve seen teams who run the absolute best in balanced builds overwhelmed by an unbalanced overpowered gimmick build. Trying to adapt a build to meet all flavors of gimmick is not my idea of game balance and certainly not fun.

Personally I like the idea of the chameleon skill. I don’t see this breaking balanced builds because there is not a reliance on any single build aspect. FC air spike is totally broken when faced with enchant removal and interrupts, but a well-balanced teams is not.

There would of course need to be limitation placed on it, like maybe only selecting skills from primary class and from a specific attribute.

Aiiane · Jun 27, 2006, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by overclocked

Every build is a gimic build, If you play a build with out the right counters, is the build at fault or you?

Of course you are at fault but this thread is saying the opposite.

Dont be a scrub, Read Sirlin Stop Crying and get better at the game please.

If you had actually read and comprehended Sirlin, which unfortunately few do, you would have noticed that his articles were centered around games with high-level gameplay. The core issue at stake (slightly more of a big-picture deal than just SB/RI) is that with certain builds becoming popular, there is the potential for high-level gameplay to be destroyed due to what most would call a rock-paper-scissors effect, in that one build completely and utterly destroys another, which destroys another, and so on - whether you win or lose does not depend on skill, but completely on whether you brought the correct build, because a single build won't provide enough of a counter for enough of the competition.

Divineshadows · Jun 27, 2006, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

In short - more than ever, even high level ladder games are being won and lost before the timer starts and the gates open. There is very little strategy involved and I can feel myself getting worse as a player at times. The depth of strategy and tactics, of seeing the other team and dynamically adapting and figuring out how to outplay them is largely absent from a large number of matches, and because of it the game isn't fun right now.

There's a certain amount of 'addiction' to winning, and the history of the game keeps me playing out of habit. But this metagame of 'who can pull the right matchups for their ridiculous gimmick' makes me want to throw up. Combine that with rampant smurfing and there is very little reason to play right now. I hope arena.net is taking notes because the game is due some serious changes for the next tourney season.

It is nice to have the affirmation of what I was already thinking after having faced these builds in GvG and playing some matches on teams that were running triple smite. The current state of the game makes me wonder if I want to continue to GvG with a team striving for high ladder position.

Do you think that the playoffs will be just as ridiculous? If they are, then certainly arena.net will take note.

Nadine · Jun 28, 2006, 03:38 PM // 15:38

SB RI is just WAY overpowered. No way to win that kind of build if it is correctly played. For example Storm Bearers lost to r250 guild playing SB RI spike. The match last for 42 mins becouse those r250 noobs cuoldnt take permanent ressurrecter out. But they just cuoldnt be killed becouse they killed warriors all the time.

3x Smiter + 3x Thumper is over powered. But they can be won (except Jade Isle). In the Isle Of Jade They and their pets just block u on the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing bridges. But still these builds can be won with perfect team working. But is it right when u need to have excellent tactics and hell-kind of team work to win some r300 noobs with over powered build?

Lady Erighan · Jun 28, 2006, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiiane

If you had actually read and comprehended Sirlin, which unfortunately few do, you would have noticed that his articles were centered around games with high-level gameplay. The core issue at stake (slightly more of a big-picture deal than just SB/RI) is that with certain builds becoming popular, there is the potential for high-level gameplay to be destroyed due to what most would call a rock-paper-scissors effect, in that one build completely and utterly destroys another, which destroys another, and so on - whether you win or lose does not depend on skill, but completely on whether you brought the correct build, because a single build won't provide enough of a counter for enough of the competition.

Well said.

Wasteland Squidget · Jun 28, 2006, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadine

3x Smiter + 3x Thumper is over powered. But they can be won (except Jade Isle). In the Isle Of Jade They and their pets just block u on the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing bridges. But still these builds can be won with perfect team working. But is it right when u need to have excellent tactics and hell-kind of team work to win some r300 noobs with over powered build?

While I agree with you, it helps a lot if your posts are readable. It's not that much harder to type out 'you' than 'u.'

On topic - over half of the matches we've played in the last few days have been against SB/RI. This balance update cannot come soon enough.

Ensign · Jun 28, 2006, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Do you think that the playoffs will be just as ridiculous? If they are, then certainly arena.net will take note.

Eh, to an extent. The teams that have run one gimmick up the ladder will get hated out and blown up, as usual. The good, flexible teams - I'm specifically thinking of EW and iB here - are dangerous because they can beat you straight up with a more typical build, or break out one of the gimmicks and lock you on a map where you can't deal with it effectively. The teams that keep you honest with flexibility but can still beat down with something broken are the most dangerous, and I'm sure we'll see some wins for the gimmick builds because of those.

On the whole I expect this to be a playoff about defense though. Teams don't want to lose to SB/RI or triple smite, and will bring the tools to do so - when both teams are matched up with those builds, expect the matches to go 40+ minutes every time.

Peace,
-CxE

Vindexus · Jun 28, 2006, 10:15 PM // 22:15

EP vs pRp again?

Also, re-applying isn't the same as re-casting. If you cast, you're casting. If a hex is reapplied, it has been reapplied. It may have been recast, but they are still different. The Soul Barbs description is wrong.

Think of walking in lava. The Cripple is reapplied, but it isn't being applied by a human.

Worf · Jun 29, 2006, 08:11 AM // 08:11

I remember when i tested SB+RI spike with my guildmates, before any of the top guilds had played with it. I didn't feel then that it's overpowered, but it was still better than other spikes, it isn't faster, but to kill with it succesfully you need only 2 spikers.
SB+RI can be stopped by just one interrupt or KD. Union would nearly halve its damage. Energy denial to their necro helps a bit. Diverse SB(s) and RI(s). It can be stopped, but yes, it's slightly overpowered.

Patrograd · Jun 29, 2006, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worf

SB+RI can be stopped by just one interrupt or KD.

Ward of Stability and Mantra Resolve these days, plus the fact that they run with 2 spike teams, not one.

Quote:

Union would nearly halve its damage.

but wouldn't survive long enough due to it taking damage constantly, and in any event, halving the damage merely doubles the time it takes for you to die, as die you surely will if the spike is put on properly, even if takes 10 seconds.

Quote:

It can be stopped, but yes, it's slightly overpowered.

It can be stopped only if you build directly to counter it (or the other team aren't very well organised), and the skills you need to counter it are not terribly useful against anything else, certainly not against the other FOTM, triple smite, and the skills you need to counter triple smite are not much use against SB/RI. So you can build to counter both but you then leave yourself open to balanced builds, fast cast air spike etc, because if you also build to counter those you have a build full of counters and no actual way of hurting anything given that there are only 64 skills on the team bar. In fact, you might go as far as saying that the best counter to triple smite is SB/RI or fast cast air spike, and that all three builds should, if played competently, beat a balanced team of equal or even considerably greater ability.

You can usually tell when a build is way overpowered when the top teams stop trying to build counters and start playing with the build in question, as these teams would much rather play balanced as a general rule.

Worf · Jun 29, 2006, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Ward of Stability and Mantra Resolve these days, plus the fact that they run with 2 spike teams, not one.

That's true. I forgot to mention about blackout.

Also Hex Removal (many Blessed Light monks around) would stop that. By removing one hex, which is always Recurring Insecurity, helps a lot.

JR · Jun 29, 2006, 03:09 PM // 15:09

To quote what I posted on this matter over at TGH:

Quote:

To everyone that is saying that SB/RI is easy to counter, I will repeat what I said on Weapon of Choice last night:

EW had two Convert Hexes (at least one fast cast), an Expell, Hex Breakers (I think), and interrupts for Soul Barbs. We played a lot of games that night so I'm not entirely sure of the exact layout of their build. They had already been tanked once by SB/RI that night, and were obviously trying pretty damn hard for it to not happen again.

Either way, it made no difference. We still steamrolled them. Not because they played badly, or made mistakes. Simply because SB/RI is completely broken and insanely hard to beat if it's not run by fools.

SB/RI played by a mediocre team is beatable, because you can run them around the map untill you get into a position to Gank or have a large NPC advantage at VoD.

A good team playing SB/RI will not let you do either. They have a supremely strong split, plenty of snares, and an absolutely brutal and fairly rapid spike. Every ~13 or so seconds you can do a spike with RI, which is basicly an instant kill or close. In between those you can spike as much as you have the energy for with just Soul Barbs. Less damage, but still difficult to stop, pressures the monks, and wastes their Converts.

People who simply haven't seen this build played even remotely well need to really stop posting. It is NOT easy to counter at all.

Also; You need Expell/Convert/Purge Sig to remove RI, it is always the second in the hex stack, not the first.

Greedy Gus · Jun 29, 2006, 04:27 PM // 16:27

An even more relevant quote from WoC:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kermit

Apparently, everybody on forums have the answers to every build ever created. But for some reason, their guild sucks. I don't know what's the deal.

Zephyr Jackson · Jun 29, 2006, 04:36 PM // 16:36

To me at least every build is a gimmick, spikes require timing to produce alot of damage before a monk can heal, pressures is to wear out a monk until they cannot keep up with healing, resulting in a retreat or a death to a party member.

These gimmicks although require 1-2 skills that support the rest of the build
FC Air Spike - Orb+Attunes
Iway - Res Sigs + Pets + EoE +Iway skill
ViM - AoE conditions +ViM skills
and others are tntm

Beat_Go_Stick · Jun 29, 2006, 05:15 PM // 17:15

I don't know about anyone else but I feel that, while making the championships much more immersive for the normal player, being able to observe ladder games removes a Guilds ability to pull out a build nobody expects.

What if Ladder games were no longer observable by spectators? It would allow a little more flexibility and add a surprise element to the championships. The Champ rounds of the final 16 would still be viewable so that we could all watch the finals and all but what the top guilds were running would be more of a mystery until then...

What would everyone think about that?

Almighty Zi · Jun 29, 2006, 05:20 PM // 17:20

I don't mind gimmick builds provided that they are not over-powered gimmicks. Having said that I'm not really sure what would qualify as a gimmick build. If its a build that realies heavy on a single strategy then I'm not opposed to these as these builds usally have a weakness as a consequence of investing so much into a single strategy. If it doesn't have a weakness (which a balanced build can take advantage of through good play) then the build is overpowered.

I really don't like the idea of a rock, paper, scissors metagame where winning or losing is dependant on builds but I wouldn't want to see a stale game either where everyone plays the same type of build. I think its a good idea to have builds that are stronger against other builds but not so much so that there is no way for the weaker build to win through being the better players. If the gap between builds is too great that it cannot be closed through a certain degree of better play then a rebalance should be in order.

If there are gimmick builds that require a specific counter or require you to invest heavily in a certain aspect of your own build (hex removal, snares or enchantment removal etc.) in order to beat them then these need to be looked at. I think there is prehaps 2 such builds doing the rounds at the moment.